Saturday, April 05, 2008

INvestor/traders as Market Shamans

NG posts in the comment section about what to follow to divine stock market movement--on what basis are we to judge. It always feels to me that we are shaman-like in our quest for determining stock market direction. Our tools are our talismans: we shake, rattle and roll the various chicken bones; we raise our moistened finger to see which way the wind blows; and we gaze wistfully to the horizon to see whether the clouds are fair or foul. And, we look thoughtfully upon the past and what the ancients said and thought. As strange metaphor, but and apt one I think.

I think that Carlos Casteneda smoked peyote and then walked in the desert with his eyes crossed to find "truth" somewhere in the overlapping vision. The complexity of the layering of divination trappings (TICK, technicals, fundamentals, futures, insider buying/selling) has the capacity to produce conflicting signals leaving one standing in the desert with one's eyes hurting and throat parched. A chicken bone or two might poke a hole in one's pocket and poke some tender areas. I'm not saying they are not useful (and to be clear, I've no idea how to use some of that stuff!), but at some point one saturates oneself with so much information that it is an overload and many not produce clear signals for action. In a sense, some of the tools to me (and I've a high degree of tolerance of unclarity!) become so esoteric that their usefulness becomes diminished. And these tools are SO appealing to my inner information magpie.

In the end, I have to come back to my being a sectarian and a fundamentalist(oh, but with a bagful of talismans). I believe that money, like water, seeks its own level though there may be wide swathes of disparity for uncertain durations. I'd like to think that in our consideration of asset classes and assets within classes, we are always trying to evaluate

  • intrinsic value: what is the value based on objective measures (cash flow, earnings, etc)
  • relative value: what is this asset's value relative to the valuation of other asset classes (the overvaluation of bonds in the flight to quality is an example of this). It can also be the value of a stock in the same sector as other stocks.
  • extrinsic value: what value has the market place conferred upon this asset and why is there a premium (again, bonds and the flight to quality--with quality/safety being the reasons for the premium)
When relative and or extrinsic values become extended among asset classes or between intrinsic value, whether gold, dotcom stocks, commodities, bonds, real estate, rare cars, then speculative excess hits a climax--and then the denouement follows--though probably for just a short period. Isn't that really the story of investing and making choices among asset classes? It likely reads like a bodice tearing, romantic cheap novel--but the market is based on emotion, and emotions always involve bodice tearing and secret if not illicit yearnings!

I think that the well-grounded successful investor can identify intrinsic v. extrinsic value AND he/she can evaluate the level of risk that lies in the valuation distance between the two. I don't hold myself out as being in that camp (I'm still in the woodshed). From that evaluation s/he can make a considered decision regarding risk/reward. And risk reward always exists in the context of a time horizon. Value, time and risk--these are the contexts that a well-grounded investor minds well.

Here's a great example of intrinsic v. extrinsic valuations: Beanie babies. I could never understand the phenomena of beanie babies. How could a bean bag animal that fit in your hand command $1200 or some other ridiculous price. It's intrinsic value was $5. Its extrinsic value was based on the fickle fancy of the public. That dynamic never ends very well unless you bought at $5-100.

To my mind, when the extrinsic value becomes inflated beyond reason from the intrinsic value, you'd best be quick or your money will be dead (presuming you are playing in extrinsic values). I still believe in equilibrium or fair value--and like the "average" line that gets drawn among a scatter of points--it can be near or far to other points. So at any point in time, the market price is the extrinsic value (meaning it is set by the fickle fancy of speculators) and that value (hope, greed infused value) may have a large or small standard deviation above or below the fair value. Though as I write, I realize that fair value is still an ephemeral concept and subject to whim/fancy regarding methodologies used to determine fair value--and that "fair", like beauty, is determined in the eyes of the beholder! Always there is quicksand to step in!


To stay grounded, I believe in the power of the economic cycle and the the ebb and flow of money from sectors that will experience marginally improving fundamentals (meaning the sector has peaked and priced to perfection) in the future to sectors who have declined from their peak and will experience greatly improving fundamentals. I believe that is how money finds its own level. And I believe that trends go further for longer than one expects, though I have to fight my incredulity--and I've not found a good way to win that fight. Perhaps participating in the frolic with an appropriate hedge would be a good neutral territory that allows one to enjoy the upside but prevents one from waking up naked in a strangers front yard.

I believe as investors/traders we are market shamans. We've our particular talismans that we use because in them we have confidence in their ability to peel back the curtain of the future and allow us to make a current judgment in order to participate profitably in that future. Accordingly, I try to be mindful of understanding that my talisman's may not be the same as another's talismans. Moreover, 'different' does not confer 'better' or 'worse.' Ultimately you have to have talismans that grant you success--and that is the journey that each investor needs to undertake. And hopefully it doesn't involve our smoking peyote, crossing our eyes, and walking in the hot desert.

7 comments:

Anonymous said...

leisa- i suppose in the 'final' analysis trading is as much art as science...i can definitely identify with the information overload syndrome, which is probably why i rely mainly on sentiment...each individual will eventually find some combination of positions/position sizes/sectors/time horizons/signals that works for him/her...and of course, trying to explain a particular trade to someone with a different personality/background/risk preference/belief system can often fail...

can't argue with any system that works for someone, so i try to respect all strategies/explanations even if they're incomprehensible to me or would not work for me...

both you and NG mention trading on inside information-> that must be a game that can be played on so many levels it would be difficult to regulate...if one keeps position sizes below the radar screen, and stays more than two dots away on any line that could connect a trade to the information behind it, doubt it would ever be discovered...the definition of inside information is also hard to pin down-> if you're able to piece things together well, especially if part of your job is to ferret out answers (let's say journalist), then would trading on that knowledge be illegal? hard to say...

2nd_ave

Leisa♠ said...

2nd--Oh no! I did not say that I traded on inside information. I've never in my life traded on insider information--the point that I was trying to make is that even if you had it, (such as knowing the jobs number) you could get the market reaction wrong. Though I think that we could say that there is some information that is clear (regarding buying a company and trading the target) in it's potential reaction.

I didn't get the sense from NG that he was talking about trading on insider information, but to the only clairvoyance once could have is by having access to it.

I think that many financial journalists are not able to hold specific stocks, so that keeps that area tidy.

Anonymous said...

leisa- sorry- didn't mean to imply that either you or NG may have traded on inside information, simply that both of you mentioned it recently in reference to placing bets on market direction...which prompted me to speculate that a) it occurs far more often than one would like to think, and b) the line separating inside information from astute detective work can be somewhat blurred (although i'm sure in most cases it would take a jury only a few minutes to make that distinction)...

2nd_ave

Anonymous said...

2nd

You posed some intriguing questions in your previous posts...

Questions about TA, about the 'reliability' of contrarian positions and trading against the crowd; on whether correctly reading human nature can be more 'reliable' than interpreting numbers? - and another question on whether one's 'gut' is more reliable than reading chart patterns in gauging sentiment?

Tough questions - but questions that I guess every trader should factually inquire into...

Here's my take fwiw...


(A) On TA:

I see charts solely as a means to give a quick visual on things - nothing more.

I don't see charts or technical indicators as a reason to "take a trade".

I try to be aware of the self fulfilling nature of TA, and to be aware that many traders behave in certain ways around key points on the charts (eg: 50 dma - and all the other popularly accepted stuff).

My hunch is that the smarter/quicker traders (which we all aspire to be) - essentially trade around the public and trade around commonly accepted TA

I personally find it really surprising that the investing public has to some degree embraced TA.
A TA proponent may be surprised to find that if he/she went to a big investment house, or to the pits (now electronic) or talked to successfully consistent day traders
---> that NONE of these 3 groups put much emphasis on the "chicken bones" of TA.

"Big Money" which moves large chunks of stock --> has its reasons
It doesn't need or use TA.

The locals/dealers (whatever they are called now a days) - they see the order flow coming in - so they don't need TA.

Successful Day traders don't use TA - its too slow.


So IF THE 3 LARGEST GROUPS OF PEOPLE WHICH INFLUENCE/CONTROL THE DAILY MOVEMENTS OF STOCK PRICES DON'T PLACE A BIG EMPHASIS ON TA - I have to seriously question why I or any other trader would want to place undue emphasis on it.


My personal angle is to focus on the journey the price makes, and to focus on how price "makes the journey"

In effect, I like to know: What is the 'tune' the price is playing as it dances around??
I'd rather just watch the 1 min chart - without the price indicators - to see what the 'song of the day' will be.


But to each their own...
If someone is consistently profitable using TA - that is all that matters - consistency.




(B) On the 'reliability' of contrarian positions and trading against the crowd'


2nd, This is a really difficult question...


I guess, Sometimes it pays to be contrary - other times it's like fighting a losing battle??

I'd posit, that if one uses contrarianism merely as a 'reaction' or as a "posture"
--> then I'm sure such a trading style is not any more useful than having traded the other way (ie: in favor of what one was
"Reacting against".)

In other words such a 'willed' contrarianism would be too logical to be consistently profitable - and could be akin to trying to 'force' something.

But I assume 2nd that you are talking about a more 'subtle' form of contrarianism - one more aligned with 'counter intuitiveness' - rather than one based on rote readings of P/C ratios or AAII readings.. am I correct?


One hazard I see in this area - could be where the trader becomes reduced to 'fading' every move.

And what about the cases where the 'crowd' is willing to "push the trend to the max" - or where the momentum is strong?

Perhaps this is related to the age old trader's dilemma - on whether to trade the market as a "trading range" - or as a trend.

In this regard leading market indications (as opposed to lagging TA indications) could provide the trader with confidence in establishing contrary positions.


In general though, I'd say you are correct 2nd in regard to 'contrarian positions'


I'd have to say that most of the money made in trading - has to do with scaling into positions in anticipation of catching the 'edge' of the trade - the edge of the price move --> being 'on side' and ready for that point where the last buyer has bought - or the last seller has sold - that point where the crowd realizes it is wrong.




(C) On correctly reading human nature being more 'reliable' than interpreting numbers

Some people may be better at doing this than others because they are not 'psychologically' blocked.
I'm also not sure that 'correctly reading human nature' can be taught.
Either one is aware of the human condition - or one is not.
It would also probably assume a level of awareness that is not ego based.

Sp, if one has, or rather "is" this state - then yes - I'd have to agree - that 'interpreting would no longer be needed - as one already has the 'correct' read.



This is an intriguing statement 2nd that "correctly reading human nature could be more 'reliable' than interpreting numbers"


2nd do you have any insights on it as it applies to trading??


What should one look for?


How should one approach it?


Is there a way to do it - or is it really a 'non way' - or is it just maybe 'common sense?'


I'd be interested to hear about it...



... continued....

Anonymous said...

ramblings continued....

(d) On interpreting numbers...

Personally for trading I like to approach the interpretation of numbers relationally - rather than absolute.

Each price in each market is somehow related to the price in each other market.

A support level in one market may not hold (despite the TA) - because of how all the other markets are positioned.

Everything is related and connected.

So the outcome of a trade in one market may not necessarily be logical or rational.

There is a danger that if one is immersed in their own 'reality' of the market - or immersed in their self created reality of the technicals/TA of a particular market - they can't see the "actuality" of the market - can't see the whole.
so they can't see how it may affect their specific trade in their particular market... because IMO they are focused on the absolute rather than the relative.


Finally

(e) 'gut' versus chart pattern

Don't personally place much emphasis on chart patterns.
Patterns seem to be an attempt by the trader to impose their own order on the market.
This can be a dangerous assumption.

Since markets are both random and non random, patterns do emerge though - but I see them more as 'trading behavior patterns' rather than price mechanically tracing out some head and shoulder or some other geometry that appears after the fact.

...A chart pattern can only be known after the fact.

But trading means operating in the here and now - in a perpetual degree of uncertainty - clinging to chart patterns reeks of desperation.

But to each their own.


As for 'gut'??
Sure.
Gut being - awareness...
Gut - being 'intelligence' operating though one...
Right brain and left brain together...


'gut' also relates to 'context' does it not?

I recall a couple weeks ago on the Bill Cara trading blog on a Thursday before options expiry... that the market was dropping mid afternoon.


A frequent poster who relies on TA, and in consultation with some someone entity named Trader Girlz, made spurious assumptions based on currency pair crosses, combined with TA - to conclude that the market had bottomed - and to go long.

The market kept falling sharply into the close.

'Gut' that took context into account could have perhaps helped out regarding that trade IMHO

The Context being that on an afternoon before options expiry positions were being unwound - and so the market would likely keep going down into the close - which it did.


So I can't help but think that TA or interpretation of numbers won't be of much use if gut, common sense and 'context' are disregarded.


But again to each... their own.

...


A Final thought...

Price

What is price??

Everyone keeps saying "traders trade prices"

I still haven’t figured out what that is supposed to mean.

It sounds like a truism - and is perhaps impractical.


Price does not exist in isolation - so how can you trade it?


Isn't one really trading what or who is behind price?

Isn't one really trading what causes price to move?


What is this energy we are trying to trade?

I think it is this energy behind price - this spirit - this animism - of which price is the result...

this is what we are trying to trade???

---


Trust everyone is enjoying their weekend....


btw Leisa- what breed is Chase?

He seems to enjoy the camera...


'nice

Leisa♠ said...

Good comments....I'll follow up with comments tomorrow.

RE Chase: He is an English Setter. I lost both of my English Setters last year, and adopted Daisey on my B'day last August--I shared these details with my readers. If you have an interest, you can read about Lucy here: http://tinyurl.com/25halt

My good blog friend, MarkM, suggested a a forest pansy redbud, and I ordered one and planted it over her grave last year.

Greta is buried under the mature redbud. You can read about her here: http://tinyurl.com/5rmc6o

Here are pictures of Macy (who was the pup in the picture at the end of Lucy's post) and Daisey: http://tinyurl.com/6m8cxg

OF course, if you are not an animal lover, the posts probably are not worth your time, and I'll forgive your not reading them. But my dogs/cats have been very much a part of our family, and I have a special love for English Setters.

Anonymous said...

NG- thank you for your thoughtful responses...your well-phrased comment about scaling in (pasted below) seems to capture what i often try to do:

"I'd have to say that most of the money made in trading - has to do with scaling into positions in anticipation of catching the 'edge' of the trade - the edge of the price move --> being 'on side' and ready for that point where the last buyer has bought - or the last seller has sold - that point where the crowd realizes it is wrong."

don't think i'm qualified to explain how to correctly read/game human nature, other than to say that on a daily basis, in matters big and small, i see the same patterns repeated over and over...and it amazes me how often the same strategies work over long periods of time...i know that personally it's difficult to change many aspects of my own behavior (even if strongly motivated), so maybe most people either don't bother or don't care...

great comments, thanks again

2nd_ave